Mark Herschberg is the author of The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You. From tracking criminals and terrorists on the dark web to creating marketplaces and new authentication systems, Mark has spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and Fortune 500s and in academia.
At MIT, he received a B.S. in physics, a B.S. in electrical engineering & computer science, and a M.Eng. in electrical engineering & computer science, focusing on cryptography. At Harvard Business School, Mark helped create a platform used to teach finance at prominent business schools.
Listen to this informative Publish. Promote. Profit. episode with Mark Herschberg about using a book to launch new ventures.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– How networking, leading, negotiation, and communication are skills all businesspeople need.
– Why it’s important to create a plan, no matter how far off the goal may be.
– How you want to be a positional leader not an authoritative leader.
– Why you need to focus on building real relationships when you are out networking.
– How we all have a story to tell, we just need to figure out a way to tell it.
Connect with Mark:
Links Mentioned:
thecareertoolkitbook.com
cognoscomedia.com
Guest Contact Info:
Twitter
@CareerToolkitBk
Instagram
@thecareertoolkit
Facebook
facebook.com/TheCareerToolkitBook
LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/hershey
Rob Kosberg:
Hey, welcome, everybody. It’s Rob Kosberg. Excited to have a great guest for our Publish. Promote. Profit. podcast. I have Mark Herschberg with us today. Mark is the author of The Career Toolkit: Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You. Mark has a diverse background. He’s a CTO now, but he used to track career criminals and terrorists on the dark web, created marketplaces and new authentication systems. He spent a career launching and developing new ventures at startups, Fortune 500s, and academia. Mark’s been at some of the best institutions in the world, in MIT. Mark has his BS in physics, electrical engineering, and computer science, and a master’s of engineering, electrical engineering and computer science as well. The cryptography thing is very interesting to me as well since I am a cryptocurrency fan and have been for a long time. So at Harvard, Mark helped create a platform used to teach financial education to prominent business schools as well. So quite a diverse background, Mark. And after all of that, you wind up here on the Publish. Promote. Profit. podcast. What went wrong? Just kidding.
Mark Herschberg:
Everything went right, and it went right twice because as I was on my career to become a CTO, I realized there were all these skills I needed that I didn’t have: leadership, network, negotiating. As I developed them in myself, I also wanted to develop them in my team. And as I was doing this, MIT wanted to do something similar. They recognize these are the skills companies are saying they want in everyone and they’re putting together a program to do it. So I just reached out and said, “Can I help?” I developed some material and I thought I’d spend maybe an afternoon going over what I had created. And that would be it. But that led to my helping to create the class and then teaching there for 20 years.
And during the 20-some years I’ve been teaching, I said, “We really need to get this content out to more people.” Kept saying, “Yes, yes, but we don’t have time.” Even though MIT piloted online courseware, for various reasons, our program didn’t have those resources. So I thought, “I’m just going to write up some notes.” And while I was traveling along in 2019, I thought, “I’m going to type up some notes, share it with our students,” It’s a hands-on class. They don’t take a lot of notes, “and we can share it online.” And 20 pages became 40, became 80. And pretty soon I said, “This is a book.” So it was all completely unintentional. I have my day job as a CTO, but then I had the teaching on the side and the teaching led me here.
Rob Kosberg:
Your book isn’t about starting a new business or a consulting or coaching practice. And we’ll get into that a little bit more detail, but we talked about that just in the beginning. But obviously your book in one sense has made a difference in your own life because you had to, as you said, apply these skills, learn these skills. Who is the book primarily for? I read some of the book. I read the reviews. Is it targeted at a specific genre of people, of the marketplace?
Mark Herschberg:
It is for white collar workers. Primarily I say it’s 20 to 40, but we’ve had people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, anyone who says, “I need to get better at networking, leading, negotiating, communicating.” Lots of entrepreneurs as well find this book valuable. So it’s pretty broad. The problem is when I say that people go, “When you say it’s too broad, no one believes you. No one likes it.” But I still believe that’s the case. So I narrowed it a little, white collar workers, 20 to 40.
Rob Kosberg:
Well, that does narrow it some. I read also some that there is a good bit of focus for the newer workers in the information age because there is kind of a stark contrast in the skills that are needed in today’s marketplace than just even maybe 15 years or 20 years ago. The skills are different. Add to that the pandemic and the fact that more and more people are working from home. And so the environment is different. I guess it reveals very quickly the faults in the system. Would you say that this book helps with that kind of thing?
Mark Herschberg:
So, I would say you’re on the right track, but these skills are fundamental. Whether you go back 10, 20, 30, 40 years or into the future the same amount, these skills all matter. Now the lack of having these skills could be hidden much more easily, let’s say in 1992, than today, especially during a pandemic when we’re remote. So communication, for example, it’s so much more important that we communicate effectively when we’re on Zoom because we lose some of the bandwidth. We lose that body language and interaction, other parts that we just get when I’m standing at your desk and we can get a better sense of each other. So I think the current circumstances and the acceleration of the world as a whole, as you point out, have just laid bare the importance of these skills, but they’ve been important and will continue to be even if we go back to working like we did in 1992.
Rob Kosberg:
So, we have a good foundation of who the book is for, what somebody can expect to learn and get from the book. Obviously, if somebody has been in their career in a little while but they’re stuck in a spot that they’re not happy, then this can certainly be useful to them. Obviously, if they’re young, if they’re in college or just moving out of college into their career, this could be very, very important to them because it’s not enough just to have your master’s in engineering, in electrical engineering. If you want to move up to CTO, you have to have some of these skills as well, as you learned and have shown us. So let’s talk about some of the interesting things, though. Cryptography. So was there any, or is there a great interest when it comes to your day-to-day world and life in what you’re seeing with blockchain? Is that something that you were looking at even 10, 20 years ago prior to what we’re seeing today?
Mark Herschberg:
Well, certainly I became aware of blockchain, I want to say around 2010, because on some cryptographer list. So, I am a cryptographer. We create secret codes. We protect your data. The reason you can put your credit card online and feel safe. And on some of our mailing list, we were talking about this thing called Bitcoin. Back around 2010, it was trading for a handful of cents. I remember thinking, “Maybe I should just buy some just on principle.”
Rob Kosberg:
Just in case.
Mark Herschberg:
I never thought it would go anywhere. I still don’t think it will go anywhere. But I thought just fun to have like, “Oh, I’ve got some cryptocurrency.” Now because I spent a year at Harvard Business School working with some finance professors, that was a great experience. I always point out Harvard paid me to learn finance. So many people go there every year. They pay money to take finance classes. I sat three feet for a finance professor who was giving me personal tutoring during the year. That was part of my compensation unofficially. That’s part of why I took the job. And I understood markets and finance and got really great education. And knowing that, I see, I look at cryptocurrency and say, “There’s no underlying value or revenue stream. So I just can’t get behind buying into it.”
Rob Kosberg:
You said something very interesting. I mean, you said you don’t think Bitcoin is going anywhere. I know this isn’t a Bitcoin podcast. I’m not trying to evangelize. But it’s already practically a $1 trillion asset. So to say it’s not going anywhere and it’s always already a trillion-dollar market cap is like, “Whoa.” It doesn’t seem like it’s going anywhere from the standpoint of going to zero.
Mark Herschberg:
How are those tulip bulbs working out for you?
Rob Kosberg:
The tulip bulbs came, and they went. This is a little different.
Mark Herschberg:
No, we’re just arguing over timeframe. That’s my argument.
Rob Kosberg:
So, you think from a timeframe perspective that eventually it’s going to be nothing more than those that are selling it are those that are interested in selling it for a higher price than they bought it for, and it’s the greater fool theory.
Mark Herschberg:
I think it’s a greater fool theory. Now for the record, I also don’t understand gold. I get why historically people chose gold, and that’s why it’s retained some value today. It may be that Bitcoin, you get enough people in it, it just inherently has enough people who all will prop it up and say, “No, no, there’s real value,” like we do with gold. But I’m not buying it, literally and figuratively.
Rob Kosberg:
Understand. Not that you wrote a Bitcoin book and are a Bitcoin expert, but I thought, what the heck? Cryptography sounded interesting. Let’s at least go a little bit ways down that rabbit hole.
Mark Herschberg:
I get that often.
Rob Kosberg:
So, to tell me, what would you say, going back to your book and the subject at hand, what’s some of the biggest mistakes that you cover in the book but that you see people make? And let’s talk more younger people. Let’s talk people getting out of college and entering the workforce. What are some of the biggest mistakes that they make that you see that you try to correct in the career toolkit?
Mark Herschberg:
There are 10 skills in the book. And these are skills you’ve all heard about, and yet we screw them up. So one, a career plan. Most people don’t even have one or the career plan is, “Well, I hope maybe I’ll be a VP in X number of years.” And that’s it. That’s the extent of their plan. We know you’d never do a big project at work without having a plan. You’d never undertake a book without having your plan. What’s your book proposal? A plan. Who are you going to market to? What’s your timeline? How are you going to do all this? If someone came to say, “I don’t want to bother with that,” you’d say, “No. Your chance of success are slim to none.” And yet we say, “5 years, 10 years from now, here’s where I hope to be, but I’m not going to bother with a plan.”
So that’s a common mistake, thinking we can’t create a plan because it’s too big, too long-term, or that we’re okay without having one. With networking, the idea is, “Oh, I’m connected to all these people on LinkedIn, and therefore, great. I’m well networked.” And there’s a line in my book that actually came to me on a date. And I forget how we got this on a date, but the line came up. I made sure I put it in the book. Saying that you are connected to someone on LinkedIn and that person’s in your network, that’s like saying you swipe right on Tinder and this person’s now your significant other. We’d say that’s totally insane for Tinder, but on LinkedIn, no, we think that’s rational. People, when it comes to networking thing, I just add people or I collect business cards and I have a network. I don’t understand the relationship part of it.
Leading. So many people think leading is commanding and telling you what to do. And that’s authoritative leadership, but not real positional leadership, which people don’t understand until much later in their career. So each of the chapters, and really the way I wrote the book is each chapter has a mental shift changing how you look at that particular skill followed by, “Here are actual things you can do to better execute on it.”
Rob Kosberg:
I’m thinking of my kids. I have three boys. My youngest is 21. My oldest just turned 30. And one has an advanced degree in math and works for NASA. But we’ve talked more probably recently about his career path because as you might imagine, NASA gives a great sense of purpose and that he’s doing something great with his life, but his friends are making four or five times the amount of money that he’s making at Google and Facebook. And so there is that sense of, “Yeah, I want to make more money, but I’m never going to make more money here.” So I am absolutely going to buy your book for all three of my kids.
One thing you just said that I thought was really intriguing was the networking part. Can you talk to me a little bit about just some practicals around the networking? So I mean, I don’t even know if they use LinkedIn at as an example. I certainly know that my middle son does and is networked within where he works, but what are some practicals for them to network to keep those relationships or build those relationships that they’re going to need in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, et cetera?
Mark Herschberg:
I’d start with, here’s the mentality that you need to teach them, which is focus on the relationship. Too many people think of networking as, “Oh, I need a job. Okay. I’m going to go network and find a job.” That’s like saying, “I have to go move this weekend. I’m going to go out to bars, meet a couple of guys. Hey, great to meet you. Let me buy you a beer. Good sharing with you. Listen. Can you come over this weekend, help me move?”
Rob Kosberg:
Yeah. I don’t think so.
Mark Herschberg:
That’s right. You’re meeting strangers and saying, “I need.” Now, if we’ve known each other for 20 years, I could say, “Hey, listen, man, I need a favor. Can you come over?” And just, “Yeah, of course, Mark. Happy to help.” So same thing. We need to build that relationship before we take. And the best way to build a relationship is to give, is to offer, is to meet and chat and, “Hey, how can I help you?” So more than any action… I do have specific actions in the book, but the actions don’t matter unless you get that mentality of, “Nice to meet you. I want to build a long-term relationship with you. How can I be helpful to you?”
Rob Kosberg:
But from a practical standpoint, any tips within the book about how to go about the networking itself? I mean, to get a date these days, you do have Tinder. I guess maybe I just answered my question. So is it something like using social tools like LinkedIn and letting those be the beginning of these relationships, or is there something that’s more face-to-face, belly-to-belly, so to speak, that… Or maybe both. What does that look like?
Mark Herschberg:
I personally don’t like to do the initial outreach on LinkedIn going, “Hey, let’s connect.” But if you do, that’s fine. But you have to keep in mind, like Tinder, you can’t just say, “We both swipe right. Done.” That’s the start. What’s the next thing you do on Tinder? You meet up in real life for a date. That’s what you have to do when building your business relationships. So I go to real-world events when there’s not a global pandemic, and I meet people. And I get to know them. I talk to them and I follow up. I follow up with emails or phone calls or we get together again, not with everyone equally, just like I don’t click with everyone on Tinder. You don’t click with everyone, but go out and meet people. Put yourself out there and get to know people.
And in fact, I’ll say podcasting is a great way to do that. Now you meet all sorts of interesting people when you do this podcast. As an author, I’ve been going on podcasts. I’ve met all sorts of fascinating people. And if you haven’t done a podcast, what you might not know is that we usually chat before or after the episode, and we talk, and we get to know each other, and we start building relationships. Going on podcasts, that’s a great way to meet someone.
Rob Kosberg:
I mean, that surprises me. I mean, I understand that for someone like yourself who is an author, an instructor at MIT, et cetera. But what about somebody that’s in a middle management type? Or is that just not applicable to them?
Mark Herschberg:
So, it totally is. First, we all have some story to tell if we can just figure out what it is and how to tell it. It might be writing a book. It might be going on podcasts. It might be doing talks. You just have to figure out that story and how to make it compelling. But all of us have that. But even if you don’t want to do it, say, “I’m not on the type of person to go put my story out there.” Fine. Get out. Get out of your house. Get out of your office and go to an industry event. Every geographic community has groups for their industry, other people in that field. Get to know them or do other work, unrelated. One of the best things I do to expand my network, I was a competitive ballroom dancer throughout my 20s.
I’d go out to competitions. The ballroom world, it’s not that big. We all tend to know each other. I see the same people over and over, and you build up friendships. So it could be a hobby. It could be going to your local church. It could be a nonprofit you do. But do something. And as you get out, go do things.
The one thing I don’t do, I never show up to something that is purely a networking event where the whole point is just to go to network. It feels artificial. And people have dragged me to a few and it’s always like, “Okay. Hey, how can I make money off of you? And maybe I’ll let you make money off of me.” But when you go to do your nonprofit work, when you go to do your hobby, when you go to do something you enjoy, listen to a talk, whatever it is, you’re there because you have something of interest, and the other people around share that interest. And that’s a good starting point.
And so, when you’re meeting someone, you say, “I don’t know how to start that conversation.” Like, “Hey, stranger, come here often? Oh, that feels weird.” Well, you’re at this activity. “Hey, how did you get involved in this nonprofit? What do you think of the speaker? What did you take away from that talk? How long have you been doing this? What do you hope to get out of doing this? Hey, I’m new to this particular hobby. What should I know? I’d love to hear your advice.” So there’s lots of questions we can start out with to be that conversation as the icebreaker.
Rob Kosberg:
Be friendly and lead with a giving hand, which was the mindset advice that you gave, which I completely, completely agree with. Maybe you could even get invited to one of these legendary parties that you throw, Mark, in New York.
Mark Herschberg:
Well, that’s the other thing is when there’s no pandemic, I throw parties. I threw about five a year, and I’ve been doing this for well over a decade. I’ve probably thrown about 80 parties in my Manhattan apartment. And this comes from Keith Ferrazzi’s book, Never Eat Alone. Now he said do dinner parties. And what he says, “Look, we think of dinner parties as we got the fancy china. It’s very formal. And if you like that, do that. But it’s also okay to do buffet or paper plates or keep it casual.” If you’re 23, no one’s expecting good china. Just have people over. And then when I would think about doing it, I began it with my friend, Olivia Fox Kaban. And I live in a New York apartment. I can’t seat 12. It’s just not possible. I thought, “Well, what can we do where people are standing? Maybe we’ll just do desserts.” I thought, “Oh, wine and cheese.”
Look, this is the easiest thing ever. Do a wine and cheese party. Buy a couple bottles of wine. Have glasses. In fact, you can buy cheap wine glasses. I have the solo red cups for mixed drinks but I also have real wine glass. It costs about $1 each, and I know every party I lose about two of them. Someone drops them. People bring wine. Certainly at our age, once you’re in your 30s and 40s, people know to show up with a bottle. You buy some fruits and cheese. There you go. There’s your party. You get people over. And this is great because you bring people to you. I can catch up with 20, 30, 50 people all in one night. Even the ones who don’t come, well, I was just reminded to them and they were reminded to me like, “Oh. Mark. Hey, I haven’t talked to Mark in a couple of months. Hey Mark. Sorry I can’t make your party. How are you doing?” And so hosting events is a great way to build and to grow, meaning mature the relationships in your network.
Rob Kosberg:
Now let’s inspire people a little bit if we could. I don’t know the answer to this, but what are some of the coolest things that have happened because of these dinner parties that you’ve thrown? Because I think that is just fabulous advice that people should take, but let’s inspire them. Let’s get them excited about what has happened from these various parties.
Mark Herschberg:
Well, the most inspiring things, a couple of kids came out of them. I’ve had one marriage come out of it with a few kids. I’ve had multiple relationships. Other than that one, I don’t think others have lasted, but there have been dating relationships. Certainly, friendships have come out of it. In fact, two of my friends were very senior people at very competing tech companies, but they got to know each other over time, and were certainly friendly to each other, even knowing their companies, of course, were going head to head.
Bringing people together is great. And by the way, as an author, you should be doing this. I remember I happened to be channel-surfing. This was 20 years ago. And RL Stein… I think it was a home makeover show for RL Stein, the writer of Goosebumps. I was talking about his kitchen and he said, “Well, we did the kitchen. I was told I needed to expand the kitchen because during a party, everyone winds up in the kitchen anyway. And as an author now, I need to have parties.” Now he’s a children’s fiction writer. I’m sure he’s done inviting little children over to the party. [crosstalk 00:22:32] not. But all of us, no matter what book we’re doing, we want to entertain and meet people and just be at the center of those connections because that’s going to help our reputation and our business. It’s going to keep us top of mind within our network, which helps promote anything that we’re working on.
Rob Kosberg:
Let’s change gears. What I always like to talk about… and your situation is a little different, but not completely… is we write books to make a difference. Authors always want to make a difference in their marketplace. They want to help people. But we also write books for our own purposes. Oftentimes, it’s building a business or starting to be a speaker or media, et cetera. Tell me. Your book’s a little different because you’re a CTO and it’s not directly connected to that. It’s not like you’re trying to grow a coaching or consulting business. But what things are you doing to get your message out there with your book? How are you using your book? Obviously you’re on a podcast and probably many podcasts like this. So talk to me a little bit about what you are getting out of the authorship of your book and what it’s leading to for you.
Mark Herschberg:
So, as you noted, I am a CTO by day. I am not trying to be an executive coach, an HR consultant, which is a natural fit for a book like mine. Now that presents a little bit of a challenge because I have two brands, and the Venn diagram looks like this, two circles that do not intercept. There’s Mark Herschberg, the tech CTO, and there’s Mark Herschberg, the career skills expert. For the latter, you’re right. I’m not trying to make money off of this. And that’s what most people do.
Now, I do get certain things out of it. One is of helping the world, and that’s very important to me. I’ve always been passionate about helping people with their professional efficacy. I can only teach so many people at MIT. So this lets me reach a wider audience. Second, it does get me out there on things like podcasts. So at the time of this recording, this is about podcast number 280 for me.
I’ve been prolific. It’s easier to do that than just, “Oh. Hi. I’m a random guy. And no, believe me, I have something important to say.” When you have a book, it just gives you that little more credibility. It shows, “Hey, you’ve come up with something concrete.” And so I think that’s helped get me on podcasts. It also does help with speaking. Now they talk about the book being for credibility. I happen to have some unique credibility. All of us have some credibility. “Oh, I’ve been running a financial planning firm for 20 years.” Okay. You must know something. You’ve been in business that long.
For me, I’ve been fortunate. 20 years teaching at MIT, that’s pretty unique, especially for my topic. Okay. There’s not many people with that credibility. The book adds an additional layer. And talking to my friends who do paid speaking engagements, what they said is when you want to do speaking, to really hit the big level, you need to have a book. You need to have something of like, “Hey, I’m not just another person with a talk. I’ve got something unique.” The book does that. To get really big, once you’re in that national to start raising your prices, you typically need multiple books.
Now, in my case, most likely I can kind of use the 20 years at MIT as a book. That’s something of, it’s not just something I came up with yesterday. I clearly have done it. So that plus the book, even though they’re on the same topic, kind of gives me, I’ve done more than one thing. And that lets me raise my rate. So I do get that advantage.
And then you never know where these things will take you. I was chatting with my neighbor who’s a marketer. And when I was working on the book, she said, “Oh, you should build an app for your book.” “Oh. Okay. Interesting idea. What should the app do?” “I don’t know. Build an app.” Okay, great. You should also tell me I should sell lots of books. I’ll put that on my list to do. So it was maybe the kernel, but it really didn’t give me a lot to go on.
But I sat there and thought about this. Now I am a technology guy, and I’ve worked in media, and I’ve worked in education. How do I put all these together? And I came up with an app that’s used to help my readers retain the content better. Now, when I came up with this, I thought, “Well, this…” Now I think about it as obvious. Surely someone’s done it. I’ll just go license it, slap my name on it. It did not exist. So I created a patent, and we’ve got a patent pending on the underlying technology. And I built the app for my book. And then a bunch of authors said, “This is great. How can I do that?” And so we’re expanding it. Actually, a few weeks from the date of this recording… we’re recording in February… we’re going to have the general version so other authors can put their content into the app and get the same benefits to their readers. And so it’s now this likely side business that I had never even intended at the start of this, but came out of doing this. So you never know when [crosstalk 00:27:59]-
Rob Kosberg:
Mark, books will do that. They’ll do that to you, man. Money starts coming at you. You don’t even know where.
Mark Herschberg:
Yes. The book really opens doors and opportunities because it leads you to think in different ways. It even just leads to conversations. We probably would not be having this conversation. Well, certainly because you are all about books and publishing. So it opened the door to you, and who knows what we’re going to do together two, three, five years from now?
Rob Kosberg:
Well, I am super intrigued by the app. I’d love to give some links obviously for people to be able to get your book and learn more about you. Is it live for us to give a link on the app itself? Or is that something we want to maybe hold off on for another day?
Mark Herschberg:
We can give that link. Right now, so you can see what it’s like with my app to get a sense of it. The general version isn’t yet live. It will be in early March of 2022. So for my website, thecareertoolkitook.com, that’s my website. And you can learn more about the book and where to buy and all the usual stuff on author websites. Also, one of the items up top says app. And if you go to app, it will show you what the app looks like and has links to the Android and iPhone store to download.
Now, this is the app that is hard coded to my book. It’s branded for my book. It’s only about my book. But imagine a general version. So think of a Kindle version of this app where any content can go in, and that will be available in the coming weeks at Cognosco Media, C-O-G-N-O-S-C-O media, M-E-D-I-A .com. And that webpage will be coming up in the coming weeks. But people who of course contact me through either site and say, “Hey, I’m interested in learning more,” and I can put you on the list when it comes out or we can jump on a call and talk about it.
Rob Kosberg:
We got the websites, but just one last clarification question about the app itself. So would the app be for my authors, for me, for example, would it be that we pay a fee to license it from you? And then we give it as kind of a companion to our book, for a buyer of our book? Is that the idea or is it additional, like with your book, it is an additional price or how does that work?
Mark Herschberg:
I give it away for free. And so right now the model we’re looking at is we would charge the author or the publisher. So there might be companies like yours that say, “Hey, we’re just going to do this for all of ours as part of our package.” And then anyone who works with you gets this extra. And so I recommend right now you give it away for free because if you charge your clients for it before… This is a new experience and people aren’t yet convinced. They don’t yet get, is it worth paying for? Over time, we will support the concept of paid content. And you might say, “Hey, here’s my content for the platform, but I’m going to charge you if you want to access it.” But that’ll be later in the roadmap.
Rob Kosberg:
I’ll be paying close attention. And of course, we’ll get the links out in the show notes to all of our listeners as well. So Mark, thanks so much for being on the podcast. Really, really great time speaking to you.
Mark Herschberg:
Thanks for having me on the show.
